Answering Life's GREATEST Questions (Consciousness, Philosophy & Quantum Physics)
This podcast episode features an enlightening discussion with Visa Viren, the founder of Holokinetics, a concept that embodies the movement of the whole. Visa elucidates how Holokinetics invites individuals and collectives to perceive life beyond rigid narratives, emphasizing interconnectedness and the richness of existence. Through the exploration of various perspectives, we delve into the essence of consciousness, the layers of human experience, and the importance of embracing a childlike sense of adventure. The conversation highlights the significance of balance in navigating life's myriad layers, ultimately advocating for a deeper understanding of our shared reality. We engage in a profound dialogue that challenges conventional views and inspires listeners to contemplate the dynamic interplay between individual experiences and the collective journey of humanity.
The discussion revolves around the concept of Holokinetics, which is introduced by Visa Viren, its founder. Holokinetics is characterized as a movement towards a holistic understanding of life, transcending individual perspectives to embrace a more interconnected view of existence. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of perceiving life through a lens that acknowledges the fluidity and dynamism inherent in human experiences. Visa articulates that Holokinetics invites individuals and collectives to recognize the broader reality that extends beyond one’s personal narrative, thus fostering a deeper connection with the universe and each other. This exploration leads into a narrative about curiosity and the ongoing journey of understanding, where the act of engaging with the unknown becomes a pathway to growth and self-discovery. Furthermore, the conversation touches upon the complexities of consciousness, suggesting that our attempts to define it often lead to paradoxes, as language inherently constrains our understanding of such an expansive concept.
The dialogue further delves into the metaphysical dimensions of existence, where the interplay between mind, body, and spirit is examined. Visa proposes that consciousness encompasses life itself, a notion that resonates with various philosophical traditions, asserting that our understanding of self is intricately linked to our perception of the universe. This segment of the discussion underscores the challenges of articulating experiences that lie beyond language, suggesting that true understanding often resides in experiential knowledge rather than conceptual definitions. The conversation continues with a focus on the implications of recognizing interconnectedness in our daily lives and how this awareness can reshape our interactions and understanding of societal constructs.
Moreover, the discussion transitions into practical applications of Holokinetics, where Visa emphasizes the significance of slowing down and allowing oneself to be present in the moment. The importance of breathing and self-compassion is highlighted as vital practices for creating space in one’s life, facilitating a deeper connection to the self and others. This segment culminates in an exploration of balance as a central theme, where Visa articulates that the journey towards understanding oneself and the universe involves navigating the complexities of existence with grace and awareness. The overarching narrative reflects on the beauty of life’s symphony, where each individual contributes to the collective harmony, and the adventure of life is embraced as a continuous unfolding of experiences that invite exploration and curiosity.
Takeaways:
- Holokinetics is fundamentally about perceiving life as a dynamic and interconnected whole.
- The practice of Holokinetics invites individuals to explore deeper layers of reality beyond their personal narratives.
- Understanding consciousness requires us to embrace the complexity and paradox of existence.
- A balanced life involves harmonizing various layers of existence, embracing both chaos and order.
- Engaging in life's adventure necessitates a childlike curiosity and openness to new experiences.
- The journey of self-discovery is inherently about finding rhythm and flow within oneself.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Visa
- Holokinetics
Transcript
Hello, everybody.
Speaker A:Welcome back to another episode of the Breaking Point podcast.
Speaker A:Today we are here with Visa Viren.
Speaker A:Visa is the founder of a company called Holokinetics.
Speaker A:And I'm not going to bother to explain what Holokinetics is.
Speaker A:I'm going to let Visa do it.
Speaker A:So, Visa, what is Holokinetics?
Speaker A:And then how did you come about setting it up?
Speaker B:Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker B:Thank you, Ollie.
Speaker A:That's all right.
Speaker B:Holokinetics, well, in and of itself, it's basically a living paradox in itself, that.
Speaker B:That it comes from the words that that could be translated as the movement of the whole, which means that when we perceive life from a perspective that is not stagnant or rigid or necessarily even locally our own, we can start to actually observe and perceive life from a more whole and more.
Speaker B:More bountiful way.
Speaker B:And that gives us a plethora of different types of options and availabilities in life.
Speaker B:And that's basically what Holokinetics is all about.
Speaker B:It's an invitation for us as individuals and as collectives to kind of start to become acquainted with the wider reality, with the reality that is not just kind of limited or narrated by my own local, at times, a bit limiting perspectives.
Speaker B:And basically, that's what Holokinetics is all about.
Speaker B:And I guess it's a long story.
Speaker B:We have, of course, a lot of time here to discuss how it came to be.
Speaker B:And I would basically shorten it into just the notion of the ongoing curiosity that seems to be coursing through my body and my veins about what happens when we go as individuals and as groups, as collectives, like the two of us do now here, what happens when we engage in a place where we actually kind of go.
Speaker B:I'm not quite sure what's happening here.
Speaker B:I'm not even trying to necessarily control what's happening here.
Speaker B:Let's see what comes out of it.
Speaker B:Let's see what happens when the wholeness is allowed to move as it moves and kind of play as it plays.
Speaker B:And that's kind of the origin story that's still kind of cultivating itself and still moving quite strongly at my end.
Speaker A:Well, that's a good abridged sort of introduction, but I want to get in deeper to more aspects of it, which I'm sure we'll get into.
Speaker A:So kinetics, obviously, meaning movement and holo meaning whole.
Speaker B:Yeah, holos is the sort.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:So it's the movement of the whole, and that doesn't just incorporate.
Speaker A:That's a very broad topic that isn't it.
Speaker A:That doesn't just incorporate us as individuals, but does it incorporate the universe and other people?
Speaker A:How do you do you see it spanning across multiple sort of spectrums and layers of analysis?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And even to the point, once again, paradoxically, where the narratives of separation, that there is me and then there is you and then there is a universe, eventually all of that in a way collapses or becomes a secondary thing.
Speaker B:They might still emerge there.
Speaker B:There are still beings like Visa here and Oli there and all of this.
Speaker B:And at the same time, there is some sort of a deeper immersion and a deeper kind of profound peacefulness at the notion of deep interconnectedness.
Speaker B:And that opens up a complete new layer of being and complete new layer of interacting and existing.
Speaker B:And that's basically what's, in a way, pointed towards here, which can be difficult and at times even seemingly impossible to mentally frame.
Speaker B:Because how do you.
Speaker B:How do you mentally frame and communicate something that is in a way beyond every type of way of communicating?
Speaker B:Because it includes everything and nothing.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think the answer.
Speaker A:Well, what you've just described is a category of existential phenomenons that exist in the ineffable sort of realm.
Speaker A:In other words, you can't.
Speaker A:You can't articulate certain things, so they have to be experienced.
Speaker A:I was speaking to someone very recently about their psychedelic experiences, and they were saying, had they done a variety of them and something that.
Speaker A:That comes up quite.
Speaker A:I think occasionally I hear people talking about it is that they were sort of approached or greeted by like beings sort of.
Speaker A:I mean, the consciousness.
Speaker A:I mean, we could.
Speaker A:You could do a whole.
Speaker A:Not just episode, podcast episode on consciousness.
Speaker A:You could have a whole podcast itself on consciousness, and you'd still never scratch the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.
Speaker A:Maybe not even open the lid, because do we even know where to look in the right place with consciousness?
Speaker A:I mean, I'm sure we'll get into it more with you, but what's your opinion on.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess what do you think consciousness is?
Speaker A:How would you define consciousness if you could.
Speaker A:With words?
Speaker B:Beautiful.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's a beautiful, beautiful, tricky, tricky, tricky question in that sense.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:And I think you.
Speaker B:You alluded to this already in a way that.
Speaker B:However we try to define consciousness, we.
Speaker B:We won't be able to do that because by definition, we already, in a way, create a narrative of.
Speaker B:It's this.
Speaker B:And then there is something outside of that which already creates.
Speaker B:Creates a certain level of separation.
Speaker B:Separation and, and, and different types of dichotomies and stuff like that.
Speaker B:And at the same time, if we play with words, if we allow ourselves not to get kind of bogged down with clear, distinctive descriptions of what word, what a word means, we can play with them and kind of, kind of be more poetic with, with words in that type of a realm.
Speaker B:For me, I would say consciousness is synonymous to life, to God, to universe.
Speaker B:All that it is, it is part of everything.
Speaker B:And then at the same time, I would say that being conscious of something, holding a consciousness is then a state of life, you could say.
Speaker B:And then it starts to become tricky that how do we define it?
Speaker B:How do we define something that, at least for most of us human beings with our current level of consciousness, to use a word, it is difficult to find the right words.
Speaker B:It is difficult to find the right way of expressing that which is difficult to express that which is in a way beyond our seeming current ability to express.
Speaker B:And of course, at this thing, there's the beautiful caveat of life that at least I can't say, I cannot say that, for instance, humanity or the evolution of consciousness wouldn't somehow, someday, somehow go into the place where, where we actually have the words and the means, words or other ways to illustrate and express that experience of, in a way, unity and wholeness in different types of ways.
Speaker B:And at the same time, it seems that the language that we use and the patterning in our brain that understands the words that we speak, speak, and so on and so forth, there is quite a lot of separation in there which easily leads to these notions of, okay, when I, when I define something as this, it excludes that, and in and of itself, it already creates something that is less than the whole, in a way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think one of the, the greatest problems as we suffer from as humanity, and it's only getting worse for possibly various reasons, is just how different our perspectives of life are and just how we are.
Speaker A:We exist in a.
Speaker A:In a society that maybe is promoting us to feel more separated than we could do not.
Speaker A:But not just that we are different beings, at least in some sense of the world of the word.
Speaker A:And that creates problems because it isn't just the case that we perceive.
Speaker A:A lot of people think that we all view the same world.
Speaker A:Then we absorb or interact with the data, and then we spin it around and then we get out our opinion.
Speaker A:But that isn't actually what happens.
Speaker A:We literally, like, we see the world and we block things out that we don't want to see.
Speaker A:And we expand things that we do want to see.
Speaker A:And we have a completely warped view to everyone else.
Speaker A:And then that's just one aspect.
Speaker A:Another aspect of it is just as you were you mentioned with the words, one word has a.
Speaker A:If the words in the middle, there's all the layers of association to that word.
Speaker A:So if I say that word, I'm.
Speaker A:It's my layer of association.
Speaker A:But you see it as a different word.
Speaker A:So you combine all words and then you get sentences and you get paragraphs.
Speaker A:I mean, not that obviously we're speaking, but what would you say?
Speaker A:Sentences.
Speaker A:And then you get.
Speaker A:I don't know what the equivalent of a paragraph in speaking is.
Speaker A:But there are so many ways in which human beings, through our vocabulary that we can become confused, for lack of a better term, with the way that other people are seeing how.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a big question.
Speaker A:Have you seen the film Arrival?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I watched that when I was younger and the guy that showed me it was sort of emphasizing the point that the spoiler for anyone that hasn't seen it, but the aliens had a way of communicating that was deeper than words and they could truly empathize, I suppose, with how other people were feeling.
Speaker A:Do you think that that's ever possible?
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:Do you have any ideas of what could be achieved?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Beautiful.
Speaker B:That's a beautiful, profound question.
Speaker B:I would start unpacking this.
Speaker B:With something that is echoed in different types of wisdom traditions and with different types of people with deeper wisdom is the notion that in a way it's spoken.
Speaker B:Spoken language and words are the ultimate construct of humanity, just like you mentioned.
Speaker B:I don't need to reply it, but the whole understanding of my world, the reality in which I live in, I express it with words.
Speaker B:And that's already some sort of a construct.
Speaker B:Now what I've based on my experiences, my deeper kind of internal and external introspections, I've noticed that there is potentiality for humanity.
Speaker B:Not that it needs to be this way, but there is potentiality for humanity for us to kind of unlock the deeper resonance in our physical and electromagnetic bodies, human beings and we can start to learn actually to navigate in different ways.
Speaker B:And simplistically simplifying it a bit, you could say that we have three brains.
Speaker B:And this is also something that a lot of different wisdom traditions repeat.
Speaker B:We have the mental brain, brain here in our heads.
Speaker B:That's mostly associated with understanding of words.
Speaker B:Like we're interacting now here.
Speaker B:Then there is the heart.
Speaker B:It's one of the other brains centers that we have.
Speaker B:And heartfield is strongly connected and communicates with pictographs so visual type of understanding.
Speaker B:And as we know, there's the saying that one picture can illustrate more than, or tell the story better than thousand words.
Speaker B:So you get the gist that there can be a whole lot more data packed into a single picture than the whole conversation that we're today having here.
Speaker B:Even then, moving even in a way to a deeper.
Speaker B:What we could call embodiment is the notion of.
Speaker B:Of the gut as the third.
Speaker B:And somebody could say the first brain that we have.
Speaker B:If we think about a child, when, when they develop as.
Speaker B:As a fetus, the gut is the.
Speaker B:The thing that starts to develop quite early and so on and so forth.
Speaker B:So gut brain, which many times is the.
Speaker B:The intuition.
Speaker B:For some reason, I just had the sense that I need to move 2 meters that way 2 seconds before the roof falls on my head.
Speaker B:There is no verbal understanding of why that happened.
Speaker B:There was just the sensation of a movement.
Speaker B:And that's part of the holokinetic kind of proposal and invitation is the understanding that, what if there is an opportunity for us as individuals and a collective to start really kind of sense into the.
Speaker B:Just the movement of life, not the locally mentally understood ideas of how I understand your words and not even the visuals that might have a difference.
Speaker B:Like, we can see the same picture and we can still kind of see it differently.
Speaker B:What if we just go deep into the guttural notion that, yes, there is something moving, life is moving here, and it's kind of animating this form of life to move this way in life or move that way in life.
Speaker B:And that can in a way simplify the information exchange if we think about from the spoken language, if we move into this notion that I just felt like moving that way, and as I move that way, you can also just feel in your being, in a way, the reason why I decided to move that way.
Speaker B:We don't even need words in that type of awareness.
Speaker B:And these are just few of the examples in how humanity, even without not in a way taking it extraterrestrial at all, but like in our human forms, how we could start to learn how to in a way communicate in different types of subtle ways.
Speaker B:And subtle is of course, at the core or part of the essence there, I think.
Speaker A:So one of the things I'd definitely like to get in to talking to you is to delve a bit more deep into the sort of scientific aspect, because I've looked at the website and I've read some of the words that I'm relatively, or maybe not relatively, but partially familiar with, and obviously you'd be far more familiar with.
Speaker A:But the, the, the idea of the three brain.
Speaker A:Three brains.
Speaker A:I think that that's really interesting.
Speaker A:And there's also.
Speaker A:I don't know if I remember reading once, because we talk a lot about the subconscious mind and we don't really know where the subconscious mind.
Speaker A:And I've, I've heard subconscious mind resides.
Speaker A:I've heard some people say that the subconscious mind, similar to the heart field, the subconscious mind could be an energy field that resides around the body.
Speaker A:Because if you look at things like the body keeps the score.
Speaker A:And when you look at trauma and negative past experiences and any form of therapy, one of the biggest drawbacks of sort of textbook talking therapy or CBT is that it doesn't target.
Speaker A:It targets the intellectual part, but it doesn't target the deeper part of who we are.
Speaker A:Do, do you think that the subconscious mind could be like an energy field or a more bodily.
Speaker A:Have a more bodily existence as opposed to a, like stuck in their head somewhere?
Speaker B:Yeah, I would say both.
Speaker A:Both.
Speaker B:Both.
Speaker B:And in, in a way that, that.
Speaker B:I would say that the reality that, that I, I inhabit, and I would say that all of us do, whether we are aware of it or not, is basically what we could say, electromagnetic, which means that every different level of our existence, from the densest of the material, the table, that the, the laptop is now residing, that even if I hit my head on it, it's.
Speaker B:It's going to hurt quite a lot.
Speaker B:To the air that we breathe and all the way to all the particles that we can't even see and everything that we can think of as energy, that it's basically just an electromagnetic phenomena that is interacting in different types of fields.
Speaker B:And one beautiful being who I've had the privilege of interacting in my earlier years, he described it beautifully.
Speaker B:He described the electromagnetic phenomena of life in a way that if we think about the strings of a guitar, for instance, if we start plucking the string, the string starts to move, it starts to oscillate.
Speaker B:And basically before we pluck the string, when it's in a way stationary, to put it into one word, we can clearly see the string now when we start to play it and it starts to move and vibrate and oscillate in a way we don't see it anymore.
Speaker A:Because it's moving, becomes one.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:So in no similar way, if we expand that thought pattern, everything in existence is like that.
Speaker B:It can be in a way moving in a more slower pace when it.
Speaker B:And then it's more of a form full experience or expression and.
Speaker B:Or it can in a way move in a more higher vibration, higher frequency.
Speaker B:And then it becomes less formful, which is formless.
Speaker B:And that's the oscillation of energies in that sense.
Speaker B:So that's a long answer to the question.
Speaker B:In a way that.
Speaker B:Yes, I would say that what we can perceive as the subconscious mind, we can identify it in the biological physical system even in a way with the different types of measurements that modern science can do.
Speaker B:And then at the same time there.
Speaker B:There is a deeper, you could say dwelling deeper.
Speaker B:It resides on a much more deeper level on the electromagnetic fields of life.
Speaker B:And at the same time I could say that both you and I reside in a similar way as well.
Speaker B:We can take a picture of our physical bodies and they seem to be really like formful here in the.
Speaker B:In the physical form.
Speaker B:And at the same time, when and is.
Speaker B:If we are able to attune to the.
Speaker B:In a way more subtle energetic layers, we can also identify that same energy of information, the body, the mass, in those types of more subtle frequencies as well, or subtle layers as well as in.
Speaker A:So as much as our bodies may appear as if they're evidently one entity, there's potentially layers of separation or union that can't be seen.
Speaker A:Is that what you mean?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, in a way I would say that one way of looking at our biology and even our existence is that even if we think and feel that we are one whole unit of a human being, if we start to zoom in and go deeper and deeper and deeper in, it's basically you are a set of organs, set of cells, set of all types of forms of life that for some mystical reason which we don't in a way know how it is or why it is so it has come together into this type of a living, breathing, feeling, interacting form.
Speaker B:And still there's basically over 99.999% of this being is what we could call empty space.
Speaker A:Yeah, that is so.
Speaker A:That is something that's really true.
Speaker A:That when.
Speaker A:Not true, but astounding to.
Speaker A:I remember when I sort of.
Speaker A:I don't remember exactly, but either way the fact that seemingly solid object is actually predominantly made up of nothingness is, Is really interesting.
Speaker A:And going back to the.
Speaker A:The idea of layers, you.
Speaker A:You are spot on.
Speaker A:Where on every realm there are almost an infinite number of layers that create who we are as people.
Speaker A:From the.
Speaker A:The cellular to the.
Speaker A:What's the thing?
Speaker A:What's the tiny little things?
Speaker A:What's the quantum.
Speaker A:Quantum Level and then all the way up to macro levels of et cetera and society and social, et cetera.
Speaker A:So the.
Speaker A:The level of realms is.
Speaker A:Is really interesting.
Speaker A:And when you talk about something like music, music is all about movement and it's also all about layers because music has different layers and layers that stack up on top of one another.
Speaker A:And one of the reasons that some people think we love music so much is because it is.
Speaker A:It constitutes many layers that move in a synchronous pattern.
Speaker A:Pattern being the key.
Speaker A:And life's made up of patterns.
Speaker A:And yeah, I mean to music is another exceptionally large topic, obviously.
Speaker A:But the human body, the way that you get a cut on your hand and then it grows back to the perfect level.
Speaker A:I mean some people, it doesn't.
Speaker A:They keeps growing and growing and growing.
Speaker A:You get like.
Speaker A:You can get.
Speaker A:What's it called, like Keloid scars, which are pretty nasty.
Speaker A:But that was a very long winded answer to what you said and I wrapped myself up.
Speaker A:But what do you think about how do the layers of existence.
Speaker A:How do we comprehend layers of existence?
Speaker A:That's a rubbish question.
Speaker A:Can I think of a better one?
Speaker A:How important do you think each layer is there?
Speaker A:Should the aim try and be to get all layers so that they're overlaying on one another as.
Speaker A:As seamlessly as possible and not distorting you, pulling you different ways.
Speaker A:And I guess by mean layers, I mean health, family, you have to stack all these layers up.
Speaker A:How is that part of the Holokinetics?
Speaker A:Seeing everything as a whole as the layers said layers too many times.
Speaker B:That's perfect.
Speaker B:Life is layered.
Speaker A:Life is layered.
Speaker A:Yeah, should have just said that.
Speaker B:I would say that in a way finding a balance.
Speaker B:And there is not a unified answer to what a balance is.
Speaker B:In a way, balance for me can look a bit different fear you and so on and so forth, but finding a balance and a sense of ease with the different parts of life.
Speaker B:How life appears in the life of Vivisa or of an Ollie.
Speaker A:Because when it flows, it's ease.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:They're synonymous with the two.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:So I would say that that's.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:And then of course at the.
Speaker B:In a way, seemingly the flip side of it is then.
Speaker B:Then when.
Speaker B:When.
Speaker B:When you have dis.
Speaker B:Ease which can also of course in a way manifest as.
Speaker B:As a disease, as.
Speaker B:As a physical ailment, then allowing the.
Speaker B:Allowing the natural flow to in a way find its rhythm once again.
Speaker B:Coming to mystical terms in a way which, which could be termed that if.
Speaker B:If we're playing in a band, if we think about that, you're, you are part of the band of your own life in a way.
Speaker B:And you notice that, that now you, you are a bit out of sync.
Speaker B:Do you try to start playing even stronger in your own pace and try to kind of force the others to come to your tempo?
Speaker B:Or do you pause and then continue when you find the pause or the, or the rhythm that the, the whole orchestra or band is playing?
Speaker B:So I would, I would say this is, this is my, my preference that it's, it's more about, okay, observing, taking the pause and then, then joining back into the, into the band's tempo and, and, and kind of allowing the, the, the flow of life to continue that way.
Speaker B:That would be, that would be my answer.
Speaker B:Since at the same time it can be, let's just put it, a slippery slope.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If we try to start micromanaging or fine tuning or honing the different layers of our life and existence.
Speaker B:And that can be one form of.
Speaker B:And it can be a form of seeking, trying to find yourself, find the way out of something, some sort of a predicament that you think that shouldn't be there.
Speaker B:And this can be shown in many different ways.
Speaker B:Spiritual seeking, finding a new job every three months, finding a new partner in every year, gambling addictions.
Speaker B:All these different types of ailments, in a way can be also seen as.
Speaker B:There is something that you're in a way avoiding.
Speaker B:And then therefore you're moving towards something else.
Speaker B:And at the same time, it's not that it's right or wrong, good or bad, because understanding that whatever it is that you might be trying to avoid is part of the whole as well.
Speaker B:And in a way, allowing that even if there is that one instrument in the band that you don't kind of like.
Speaker B:Well, you know, it's part of the whole.
Speaker B:It's part of the funk.
Speaker B:That one instrument is there as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We don't need to put it on a pedestal, nor we don't need to necessarily pluck it out there either.
Speaker B:We can just allow it to be as part of the whole thing.
Speaker B:And that brings the balance.
Speaker B:And once again, there is no greater wisdom, at least from my perspective.
Speaker B:I can't tell you or you can't tell me the composition of my orchestra or my band.
Speaker B:It's more about allowing life to show it in a way that.
Speaker B:That's the natural way for this human being.
Speaker B:And it might be different from the other one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Some people are going to prioritize the brass element of the orchestra.
Speaker A:And some people prioritize the string.
Speaker A:Some people might have a solo, some people might.
Speaker A:But the point is, is that you are an orchestra and you just sort of going back to the instrument that you don't like.
Speaker A:We all have instruments that we don't like.
Speaker A:But maybe you not liking it isn't such a problem.
Speaker A:Maybe it actually is complementary.
Speaker A:If that instrument is a little bit out of pace, it creates a bit of syncopation or a bit of the offbeat is enticing.
Speaker A:Yes, I like that analogy a lot.
Speaker A:I think music is an exceptionally relevant and tightly linked analogy, analogous towards human beings and human life.
Speaker A:What do you think is the potential for viewing ourselves as a whole?
Speaker A:You've used the word balance a lot.
Speaker A:Do you think that that is the highest goal, the greatest ideal that we can aim for?
Speaker B:That's a curious, curious question.
Speaker B:I would say that.
Speaker B:And I actually, I say this a lot.
Speaker B:My experience of living the life as a human is deeply ingrained in the notion that I live in a world that is ready, in a way, I live in the Garden of Eden.
Speaker B:There might be things that are happening that are uncertain, unfortunate, different things like that.
Speaker B:And as that is also seen as part of the perfectly imperfect life, it creates a profound level of what we could call freedom for us as humans to also express the deeply, deeply ingrained creativity, something that we could call the divine in humanity, the God that's dwelling in all of us.
Speaker B:Using, using different analogies, I would say that unearthing and allowing that to come out and to blossom, that's the deepest and more most profound potential for us as humanity, humanity as individuals and a collective.
Speaker B:And of course, the paradoxical notion of what it looks like that might be looking different than what we think it would be, which is.
Speaker B:Comes back to once again, the notion, for instance, before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
Speaker B:After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
Speaker B:So the notion of life having to be something that else than it is, might actually kind of drop off or peel away.
Speaker B:And then the simplest things of life, the ordinary living, actually shows up as the most alive and the most creative thing.
Speaker B:Because once again, going back to the, to the musical analogy, if every day of your life, whether it is sunshine or snow or rain, it's a symphony, it's a beautiful symphony, then it is a beautiful symphony.
Speaker B:And as we know in music, at times you have more of like stronger and, and, and more.
Speaker B:More like melodic sections and, and at times we might have a more tender sections that, that are more easier to listen to.
Speaker B:And we don't necessarily judge that as that, but it's more like yeah, I like the whole, I like the whole symphony trajectory of it and the, and the whole experience.
Speaker B:So that's the, the, I would say the, the greatest potential that is already within the reach of us as individuals and humanity.
Speaker B:And after that there's necessarily no need to know what comes after that.
Speaker B:If we decide to, or if creativity goes and we decide to fly to moon or the whole galaxy erupts into something greater and more beautiful, that's that too.
Speaker B:And if we just continue living our lives in this planet and kind of wake up in the morning and do our, do our things and go, just go to sleep in the, in the, in the evening and continue that, that's that as well.
Speaker A:The, the common sort of modern day virtue that we all rise up to the highest point is, is happiness.
Speaker A:And we all, it's not as much now, but like 10 years ago there was a huge influx in like happiness and wellness books and we're all being sold how to be happy.
Speaker A:And I think that's kind of.
Speaker A:We've cottoned onto the idea that actually and this is something that philosopher, there was a famous philosopher who said if you gave human beings everything they ever wanted, eventually they would rip it all to pieces just so that something unexpected would happen.
Speaker A:And I think that's, that's really true.
Speaker A:Happiness is not the highest ideal.
Speaker A:Happiness is.
Speaker A:One of the reasons is because happiness is kind of a bit like pleasure.
Speaker A:And pleasure is really not something you should seek because you become, you become addicted to pleasure.
Speaker A:And the highs and the lows of pleasure are.
Speaker A:Well, it's not, it's people often maybe they don't, but it would make sense to think that people get addicted because of the highs of a substance or of a stimulus.
Speaker A:But I don't think it's not just that it's the highs and it's the lows is that the contrast between the two is what creates that bond, that sort of tight grip bond on you over you.
Speaker A:So the really the highest virtue or ideal should be something like adventure.
Speaker A:Or as you, you mentioned the idea of the Garden of Eden.
Speaker A:The Garden of Eden is a perfect.
Speaker A:I learned this from the psychologist John Peterson, who was talking about the reason the Garden of Eden is held as the highest place is because it's a garden, meaning it's a walled garden, meaning that there's an element of chaos, an element of order and control to it.
Speaker A:But it's also a garden, meaning that there's an element of chaos to it.
Speaker A:And we like human beings like that balance between the two.
Speaker A:We, we, if we could, we'd what if we could straddle the.
Speaker A:We'd walk like that down chaos and order.
Speaker A:And that's the way we want to be.
Speaker A:And that's kind of like.
Speaker A:And some people can tolerate more chaos and some people need more order because they're physiologically hardwired different and then also having different life experiences.
Speaker A:But I think adventure is, that's why I do these podcasts and that's why you're doing what you're doing.
Speaker A:Because we're trying to have the best adventure we possibly can have.
Speaker A:And everyone's adventure is different and unique to them and we all have our own hobbit story that calls us out to go and drop the ring off in Mordor or wherever the hell they go.
Speaker A:So yeah, what do you think?
Speaker A:How, do you think, how important do you think adventure is to human beings?
Speaker B:I would, I would add the notion that when, when the adventure is, is taken as a childlike endeavor.
Speaker B:Okay, there's, there's, there's a difference.
Speaker B:If you are innocently like, like a child, you're going on an adventure, your, your path to school takes you through a forest and there, there's a river and you, you end up stay, stay getting, getting.
Speaker B:You go late to school because you just get, get lost in the woods.
Speaker B:In the beautiful, poetic way.
Speaker B:There's difference to the thrill seeking adventure that is adrenaline driven that a lot of us nowadays get hooked to doing, doing all the crazy sports and stuff like that over and over over again.
Speaker B:No, I'm not saying that that's good or bad either.
Speaker B:There's a difference between these two types of adventuring.
Speaker B:So in a way the kind of childlike, innocent, playful, creative type of an adventure, I would say that that's what we do whether we like it or not.
Speaker B:For some people, maybe the realization and the awareness of the adventure of their lives could be said to be a bit more of a dull one if viewed from, from an objective perspective.
Speaker B:And for others it's more, more like yeah, I'm, I'm really taking it, taking it day by day and fully, fully living it.
Speaker B:Since part of maybe a deeper, once again deeper layer of that narrative is of course the notion of duality and the notion that we live, live in a world where, where a lot of things are seen to, to be, to be holding to poles and then we kind of swing between and that can be quite an addictive adventure to hold.
Speaker B:And I would say that when we go and allow the adventure to just take us, like you could say that the Hobbit narrative goes.
Speaker B:I think now I'm geeking a bit.
Speaker B:Those books were my favorite books as a child.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker B:I think there's a poem in the Hobbiton part that they told to.
Speaker B:To the next generation that it's, it's, it's dangerous to allow the, the road to take you because you never know where you're going to end up or something like that.
Speaker B:And when you actually allow that to happen, it is quite a childlike state.
Speaker B:It is quite, quite an empty state of an adventure.
Speaker A:Well, that was the.
Speaker A:One of the.
Speaker A:Whoever it was a JRR Tolkien, whether or not he did it deliberately.
Speaker A:But when he wrote the Hobbit, when he wrote the Hobbit species or whatever you'd call it, he made them so that they were village dwelling, very isolated, insulated.
Speaker A:So it was completely unexpected for this little creature to have to go out and fight a big bad dragon.
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:He was sort of exaggerating the idea that.
Speaker A:And that's really interesting.
Speaker A:I didn't know that there was a poem.
Speaker A:That's exactly what the Hobbit elders would have told the Hobbits because that was their life.
Speaker A:That was their philosophy.
Speaker A:It was to stay safe and stay away from the unknown.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, so that makes complete sense.
Speaker A:Good writing.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker A:Further back, what would you say?
Speaker A:Good prerequisite writing by J.R.R.
Speaker A:tolkien?
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, so let's.
Speaker A:I would like to delve a little bit more into you and what your background is.
Speaker A:Like you.
Speaker A:Is this like a passion project of yours where.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously.
Speaker A:It obviously is.
Speaker A:But why?
Speaker B:Oh, that's, that's, that's the one of the question.
Speaker B:Best questions ever.
Speaker B:Um, I actually, my first podcast that I had maybe 12 years ago myself was in, in.
Speaker B:In my na native language of Finnish.
Speaker B:And basically the, the, the translation of the, of the title was why.
Speaker B:Why not?
Speaker B:And I guess that's been part of the narrative from this little Hobbit that like, why don't go like, oh, there seems to be something extraordinary there.
Speaker B:Why wouldn't I go and see what it's about?
Speaker B:Nowadays the notion is a bit deeper, deeply dwelling that even if I notice that there is something over there and there's the potentiality of me actually taking the trip and looking for it, it doesn't mean that I have to do it.
Speaker B:Once again, there's, there's the, the spaciousness to see that.
Speaker B:Okay, is it Is it that road that in a way, life wants me to take?
Speaker B:And is that the road that, that fills me up with all the, all the joy and animation of life so that in a way I actually even just notice that life takes me there whether I in a way want that or not.
Speaker B:And that being said, I really don't know at the moment what the Holokinetics project is.
Speaker B:My main work still comes from business development side of things.
Speaker B:So you could say business facilitator and strategic advisor.
Speaker B:I've been working quite a lot with transformational entrepreneurs for the past decade or so.
Speaker B:So people like you and me who like to dwell in the deeper end of life.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And nowadays I don't.
Speaker B:I don't know if.
Speaker B:If or to which extent I'm still going to be in a way exploring that avenue and to which extent I'm gonna kind of expand on, on.
Speaker B:On the Holokinetic side of things.
Speaker B:I really enjoy the not knowing in that sense.
Speaker B:So we shall see.
Speaker A:No, I rate that I write that.
Speaker A:It's obvious the whole.
Speaker A:Everything we've spoken about and what you're trying to do is exceptionally important and necessary in the modern world.
Speaker A:But how do you encourage people to implement more of these sorts of ideologies into their life?
Speaker A:Because it's.
Speaker A:I mean, you, you obviously, I'm sure you're trying to sell something to people is very difficult, even if you have a great product, because in order for someone to do something new, they have to have.
Speaker A:They have to put a foot out into the unknown.
Speaker A:And as we were talking about earlier, some people, a lot of people like the unknown as, as some.
Speaker A:As much as other people's.
Speaker A:I mean, meditation is the closest thing that comes to mind with regards to like a more widely accepted and maybe not accepted, but it's a widely known topic thing, topic meditation.
Speaker A:What would be the best way of implementing or the best sort of facet of implementing these things?
Speaker A:And B, how do we get more people to take an interest in these things?
Speaker A:Because it's undeniably going to help people, but it's just the information isn't out there because you're fighting such strong forces.
Speaker A:Oppositionally, there's so many things, and I don't mean like people or companies as such, I just mean drives like getting people to eat healthily when the drive for eating unhealthily is so strong, as a sort of an example, so best asset.
Speaker A:How do you help people to convert slowly, gradually?
Speaker B:This might once again sound a bit paradoxical.
Speaker B:It can be that the notion that I hold dearly within my heart is that actually there is really no need to try to fix or change anybody or anything.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker B:Even when somebody feels cold, they get a weird nice new sensation in their bodies.
Speaker B:Or for some reason the conversation that for instance, we are having here raises their intention, is their interest the level that there is a new intention of I want to go and see what's that about?
Speaker B:That is the internal invitation of life to actually go on to that adventure.
Speaker B:And as a childlike adventure, if mom and dad ask you and tell you to go and play in the woods, there is a different type of resistance from you actually just ending up deciding to go with your mates and have fun.
Speaker B:So there's the notion that we don't need to force things.
Speaker B:And at the same time, for anybody who kind of feels some sort of an inclination that, oh, there is something here, something moves within me, I would just invite you to realize that there is an alternative from, from, from the ways that you've been living in the past or from the ways that the mainstream media or different types of institutions might be showing up.
Speaker B:There is an alternative way.
Speaker B:And the, the best way for, for you to in a way observe and get to know what is in a way, the right way or the most alive way for you is to slow down.
Speaker B:That's what I would say is the one quite commonly viewed thing in different types of modalities is the slowing down.
Speaker B:Because what happens in our physical body and being at the moment, we are wired, a lot of us are wired so tightly.
Speaker B:It's like a.
Speaker B:It's like a string of a guitar that's wound too tightly.
Speaker A:It's gonna snap.
Speaker B:Yeah, it sounds off and it's gonna snap.
Speaker B:So how do you, how do you.
Speaker A:Not tight enough.
Speaker A:You can't play any music.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:That's once again the balance.
Speaker B:And I would say that most of us, not everybody, let's not make it too dogmatic, but most of us, it's the way that our nervous system is so tightly wound that whatever the way it is, that you can just kind of start taking a bit longer breaths in your life.
Speaker B:Not just biologically, not just physically, but allowing yourself a bit more spaciousness, a bit more self love, self compassion that creates the spaciousness to go, hey, I used to.
Speaker B:Now this is just a simple example.
Speaker B:I used to smoke two packs a day.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Actually, I noticed a craving within me.
Speaker B:Instead of going to the familiar route I'm actually going to take, go for a run.
Speaker B:Just as an Example, there's a stressor that comes up in my system and there's the habitual pattern.
Speaker B:And actually now I'm gonna do it a bit differently.
Speaker A:It's something that comes up in a lot of philosophical, as you said, modalities.
Speaker A:This idea of you have to endeavor to separate yourself out from how you feel.
Speaker A:So learning, developing the ability to detect and view your thoughts and then your feelings is a great thing to practice.
Speaker A:I mean, it's really bloody hard, so you have to do it.
Speaker A:If anything's, anything that's really difficult to do, people often make the mistake of trying to do it in the most difficult times.
Speaker A:But you can't try it in the most difficult time.
Speaker A:You have to try it in the easiest times.
Speaker A:So then you can learn to do it and then you can try in a difficult time.
Speaker A:So if someone's having a panic attack and you'll go, okay, I'm having a pan attack, but am I actually, can I separate?
Speaker A:No, you can't.
Speaker A:You, you, if it's the first time you've ever done it, you ain't going to do it.
Speaker A:But if you're a bit anxious or a thought comes up in your head, you can go, okay, I've had a thought.
Speaker A:What does this thought mean?
Speaker A:And then eventually you can decrep, create that degree of helpful separation and this ability to put like a window over your, between you, whatever you are, consciousness, whatever, and then this emotion that you are viewing.
Speaker A:I talk about this all the time and podcasts because I think it's, I just can't sort of express it enough.
Speaker A:But the, the God, the, the sort of, the line of thinking of gods and the way that we would used to believe that we were the playthings of the gods, we were, we had been possessed by the God of rage or whatever is actually a phenomenally accurate way of defining human emotion.
Speaker A:Way more than telling someone, oh, there's some of these little things going on in your brain that are making you feel like this.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker A:When you're in the grips of rage and your whole worldview shifts to one of rage and you get blinkered.
Speaker A:It's the, the God analogy.
Speaker A:The philosophy is, I mean, philosophy is for me an exceptionally, is a great way of understanding human behavior, potentially even more than psychology.
Speaker A:Actually, if you want to understand human behavior, you should look into philosophy, at least from a phenomenological point of view.
Speaker A:It's a bit vague and wishy washy.
Speaker A:You've got to be able to put it into real world experiences.
Speaker A:But yeah, So I think we've, in a sense we believe as if we've progressed our understanding, but we've lost something very important to our understanding, which is.
Speaker A:And that's why we love drama, because I think it's really important that you've got kinetics in the name, because we're not sedentary beings in any sense of the world.
Speaker A:Movement is a very important part.
Speaker A:Not just physical movement, but sort of existential movement, psychological movement.
Speaker A:That is, if we, if we, you know, I don't know what animal doesn't move at all.
Speaker A:Bloody slug.
Speaker A:Even though they move, don't they?
Speaker A:But yeah, we move a lot in many ways.
Speaker A:So, yeah, just philosophy is really good on that part, in my opinion.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And part of the coming back to, for instance, the story or the analogy of the three brains is the notion that some people, when you listen to this discussion, you might detect a tonality of a bit of vagueness in the speech.
Speaker B:And that is all.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:And both of ours.
Speaker B:And to a certain extent, I would even argue that it's partially intentional.
Speaker B:For instance, when it comes to philosophical discussions, there is the sense of spaciousness and the exploration which allows new insights to emerge.
Speaker B:And that's part of the richness and the beauty of it.
Speaker B:Going back to the notion of, for instance, having a panic attack and, or being anxious, one could even argue that dealing with difficult experiences, whether they are emotions, thoughts, physical sensations, they could all be kind of bundled into the box of experiences of a human being.
Speaker B:You could say that similar to us practicing our physique, we can practice the art of experiencing things.
Speaker B:And the same way that if, if, if you, if you've broken your leg, you don't, you don't, you don't start squatting with heavy weights at that same time, you do it progressively.
Speaker B:You, you allow the, the bone to heal and then, then you start to do physiotherapy and, and, and start to build your physique.
Speaker B:And that's the same thing that if you're in the midst of something really, really tumultuous like a panic attack, which can be at that moment experienced as the equivalent of, for instance, of a broken foot.
Speaker B:Yeah, you don't go for a run at that point.
Speaker B:You take it easy, you relax.
Speaker B:You maybe ask for a friend to, to give you a massage if the muscles around the broken leg are a bit sore.
Speaker B:And then when the body has healed a bit, then you start gradually working on it.
Speaker B:So in a similar way, learning to, in a way, practice and interact with whatever is going on in the experience of being a human.
Speaker B:I think that's a valuable and a vital skill for all of us to kind of have and cultivate in our.
